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Part One: How the qualifying event for the challenge was arranged
I have presented all of the emails I deem to be relevant, and have omitted emails which contain only discussion of travel arrangements, legal issues involving a previous Braingames CEO, and other unrelated matters. I have not edited any of the emails except to run them through a spell-checker, and I have not modified Ray Keene’s typical single case letters, except to correct names. I have deleted quoted messages identical to the ones presented. I also deleted personal information such as mailing addresses and telephone numbers. I believe this presentation will allow readers to come to their own conclusions and perhaps avoid swallowing any of the rumors currently circulating on the Internet.
The emails were sent from different parts of the world, and therefore the timestamps aren’t a good clue to the order in which they were written, but that was all I had to work with. So some may be out of order. However, I have placed the emails into sections by date, so if you read a full day’s worth everything should be clear.
In this part, documents from March and April 2001 are presented, with a short followup from May.
Cast of Characters:
Bertil Eklund: Swedish computer chess specialist
Byron Jacobs: Keene’s assistant, handling technical decisions on the events.
Enrique Irazoqui: Organizer and arbiter of Fritz vs. Junior qualifier. Replaced Schiller as arbiter for Bahrain.
Eric Schiller: Arbiter of Kasparov vs. Kramnik, appointed by Keene with agreement of Chessbase and Kramnik to be arbiter of match in Bahrain. Also appointed to be arbiter of Fritz vs. Junior.
Frederic Friedel: ChessBase, distributor of Fritz and Junior but not programs which were refused participation in qualifier.
Ossie Wiener: Represented Shredder in negotiations to include that program in qualifier
Raymond Keene: Braingames.net Games Director
Vincent Diepeveen: Programmer of Diep, a program which was not allowed to compete
22 March 2001
Sent by Raymond Keene
thanks to Enrique for a prompt response!! We must clearly add a prohibition against the computer winner competing in another man v machine match before Bahrain starts-Byron pls note to put this in the revised contract! Further points- 1 I would like to invite Enrique to be one of the two arbiters in Bahrain for the main match- Schiller will be the other-there will be a modest fee plus covering of all your expenses and a stay in a fabulous hotel with multiple swimming pools restaurants and amazing beaches 2 I want to visit Cadaqués one weekend during the qualifier-what is the recommended hotel (i.e. best-most picturesque most beautiful) and which is the best way to get there from London? I seem to recall the Salvador Dali museum is there-is it open to the public ? 3 the reason for stopping end April is that Kramnik wants to see fifty games against grandmasters by the winning program well before Bahrain starts- which I think is fair-I wanted to give enough time for this to happen-of course we can slip into may by a few days maybe even one week but time is a bit short 4 however-I think it important we don't start the qualifier until April 16-we must get the main contract and press release issued first-this is scheduled for April 15.the notice on the BGN website states nothing more than our policy to hold such a match-I don't regard that as a leak! 5 also I wd like to invite Eric Schiller-one of our arbiters from wcc London 2000-also officiating in Bahrain- over to be in Cadaqués and he cannot make it before April 16-I want him to be involved in writing the final set of rules with Enrique! 6 what is this tournament Shredder just won ipccc Paderborn or something-pls inform me!! 7 is there any problem calling our event in Cadaqués the BGN world computer championship? I hope not!! To summarise-lets start on April 16-it's the day after the big press con and I think it will make a big splash-if the event goes over the end of April I don't mind so long as we still have time to provide Kramnik with his specimen games. A speedy response would be appreciated thanks ray
Sent by Raymond Keene
we want the event to be officially known as the brain games world computer championship! I trust there is no problem with this. Byron Jacobs will officially represent brain games in all questions. it is imperative all entrants sign the brain games contract before the start of the event. I will forward this to you soon and I wd hope that Enrique will be able to get everyone to sign- we have agreed with Freddie Friedel that there will be an entry fee of $us 2500 per computer to go towards the oganisational costs-finally I understand that Shredder-deep blue deep Junior and Fritz are the four invitees. there should be no press announcements until I have signed the agreements with both Kramnik and Bahrain both of which I anticipate early next week. so long as the event finishes by end April we have no time trouble!! best wishes ray Keene brain games games director
Sent by Raymond Keene
I just emailed you a bunch of forwarded messages from me and Enrique the local organiser-looks like we can start April 16 which is good for you-make sure you pick up the forwarded messages don’t screen them out as potential cyber threats!! you will need to write the rule book for Bahrain while you are in Spain! you will get all the contracts to help with background! can you stay in touch with Byron and Enrique to find out where to stay and how to get there! Ray
Sent by Raymond Keene
I have no particular problem with any of this- while some of it I regard as extremely positive news e.g. the hotel situation! BGN is planning to install the Staunton trophy in Simpson’s on April 11, and faute de mieux we also could have made that the press announcement day for man v machine. if April 15 is generally acceptable in Bahrain I think that wd be better! we can start the computer qualifier in Spain on April 16 which then becomes ideal timing. many thanks to Justin for a lucid exposition-I hope to sign the Kramnik contract over the weekend!! Ray
Sent by Eric Schiller
I went through them all. Timetable is very tight. What time does the first round start? I need time to get from Barcelona, which is probably the closest airport. I'll check flight schedules. I'll do that ASAP. Doing the rulebook for Bahrain in Spain is no problem. I presume rules for this qualifier are the same used as Cadaqués tournament, but I need to see a copy. I'll be in touch with Byron and Enrique re arrangements. You specify four programs, but if the winner of the current computer event isn't among them, that might be strange. I haven't checked results recently, will do so soon. Preparing a website for covering the games should be a high priority. That's what the spectators will be watching. Eric
23 March 2001
Sent by Raymond Keene
we are working on all of the above-can you tell me flight costs-does not matter if you are not there at the start-important thing is that you and Enrique who I have invited both to be the two arbiters for the Bahrain event should emerge at the end of Cadaqués with a perfect rule book for Bahrain we can discuss details later after you've seen the contracts-as I said liaise with Byron and Enrique re logistics and well speak soon once the actual contract with Vlad is signed which I hope is imminent! Ray
Sent by Eric Schiller
Glad to see you don't need me at the start, flights are difficult (and VERY expensive, lowest quote I got so far from Dallas is over $3000!). I worked on them for an hour last night, nothing satisfactory. If I don't have to be there on the 16th, it is a bit easier, I can leave 15th from Dallas (Maybe, all flights early, I must be in Dallas until end of final round)). I'll try to sort something out today and give you details. What will I be doing other than the rule book, will I be working as arbiter too? More later. Eric
Sent by Eric Schiller
I am trying to make travel arrangements, but they aren't easy. I must be in Dallas through Sunday (April 15th) afternoon until the last round of the Dallas invitational ends. I do not know when that is, but the latest I can leave Dallas and get to Barcelona next day seems to be about 4:00 PM. I don't think that will work, especially since I don't know where I will be in Dallas and how far it is from the airport. All arrangements for the Dallas trip are being made by Stanford University (I will be coaching the team). They were planning on flying me back to SF with the team on Sunday night. From his latest message, it seems I don't need to be there on the 16th. Can you confirm this? Looks like I may have to overnight in Dallas and fly on the 16th, which would get me in on the 17th. I also have no idea how to get to Cadaques. The guides I read that it is a few hours. Will a car be sent to Barcelona? The ending date of the event is not clear to me. Should I be looking for an open ticket or do you have some final date? When I get the details, should I send them to you for ticketing? Please send me as much information as you can ASAP. In addition to the travel arrangements I must also alter my teaching schedule and find substitutes for the schools. Is the format of the event set? The participants? I'm still pretty much in the dark here. Finally, is there anything you want me to do re website technology before I arrive in Spain?
Sent by Raymond Keene
Byron will answer your questions-he will put you directly in touch with Enrique who is the local organiser- Byron-pls put Enrique directly in touch with Eric-thanks- ray
25 March 2001
Sent by Enrique Irazoqui
Hi Eric,
Greetings! Ray Keene suggested I get in touch with you regarding the upcoming computer qualifier in Cadaques. I have no information at all, so far, so could you send me all details that are complete? Dates are not clear yet, but so far it seems it will take place between April 16th and May 7th. Three programs will participate and play 20 game matches all against all at 40 moves in 90 minutes on 2 dual Pentium-933 machines. I must arrange flights, which is turning out to be a bit tricky as I am in Dallas on the 15th and must stay at least until 3 PM. I can arrive on the 16th sometime in the afternoon (Barcelona). What is the best way to get to Cadaques? I assume that Barcelona is the nearest airport, but let me know if there is something closer.
Barcelona is the closest international airport. Once in there you have 2 options: take a train to Figueres and I'll pick you up or else take a taxi, as I usually do. The taxi will cost about $150.
When does the event end? I must advise clients and students here and reschedule.
Ray indicated end-of-April/early May, but no specifics. As I said, we are not sure yet, but in any case the tournament should be finished before May 7th.
What is the level of formality of the event (should I bring suits or something less formal?)
Zero formality, please! :) I have never seen a necktie or a suit in Cadaqués. I always go around with blue jeans.
I understand that my major task is to complete all the rules and regulations for the Kramnik match, but assume that I'll be working in several capacities (as usual with Ray), including arbiting, press and internet coverage. However, I await Ray's (and your) guidance.
We'll talk about all this here. I understand that you and I will be the arbiters, but I don't know anything specific about it.
Is the local language primarily Spanish or Catalan?
Either, we are all bilingual. By the way, I never spoke so much English as in Cadaqués, not even during my 14 years in the States. You won't have a problem.
I always try to learn a bit before I travel. My Spanish is not very strong (English, Russian, German, Cambodian and a few others are my main languages) but I can understand a bit.
Don't worry, really. I speak Spanish, Catalan, French and Italian, and I mumble some English too. We could open a translation agency. :)
Is there broadband access in Cadaques?
Nope. If you are lucky, you will be able to connect at 56k, more often at 45k. It's driving me nuts.
I will need to access some updates on development projects that usually come in the form of 25 Meg downloads.
Impossible. If there is no broadband, I'll need an address where the developers can send me CDs. My address: <DELETED>
I have a laptop with USB and Ethernet capabilities and will have all my web tools with me should anyone need them. If you need any background on me, www.chessworks.com/Schiller/Schiller.htm should have everything you need. My main chess site is www.chesscity.com, which I operate for Cardoza Publishing. I'm also setting up WorldFamilyChess.org in anticipation of the World Families Championships in Hawaii next year. I look forward to seeing you next month! Eric Schiller International Arbiter
Please let me know the date of your arrival so I can make reservations. By the way, the 16th of April is still Easter holiday in here and hotels will be packed. Arriving the 17th is safer. I am very much looking forward to meeting you soon. Kind regards, Enrique Irazoqui
Sent by Eric Schiller
Below are the responses I got from Enrique. It seems that the event may not start on the 16th, and he advises that the 16th could be difficult re Hotel. Of course I can't book a return flight until the dates are set. How are the travel arrangements to be made? Should I simply pass on the flight options and let Byron arrange tickets? Or do you want me to price them and have you pay for them? If I have to go to work immediately on arrival the overseas portion (at least to the event) should be premium economy if at all possible, otherwise I'll be a mess for a day or two. Return flights and intra-Europe no problem. So far, the computer has been spitting out fares so high that it wouldn't make much of a difference. Haven't heard from Byron yet. I still don't understand why so many games, such a long time, for a mere qualifier. Wouldn't 10 games do as well as 20 for our purposes? These long tournaments are hard to publicize. The ongoing Odyssey tournament (which you presumably know about) is not even a blip on the radar. The final match is only 8 games, so what's with the marathon? And if there are only 4 teams (Gambit-Tiger is going to be rightfully miffed for being left out!), why not Semi-final and final match, 8 games ? Much more dramatic and easier to publicize. And only 16 games/days. Just my .02 euros... Eric {COPY OF PREVIOUS MESSAGE}
Sent by Eric Schiller
!@$%!$%! Outlook was just supposed to digitally sign things. Here is what I sent: Of course I am also using MS Office 2000 Outlook, which must be why the HTML doesn't work between us, though it does everywhere else! I realize that the in-crowd of computer people recognize that short matches are less reliable, but having a 20-game qualifier for an 8-game final is still illogical, IMHO. I see the long match as a potentially dangerous precedent for BGN. I would have suggested a higher entry fee to Ray had I known the qualifier would be longer than the final! I just don't see anyone but a computer freak following the action for 20 days. But in any case, why just one game per day? But it is BGN's call, and once the call is made I just get to work. Travel plans are starting to come together. I may return to SF from Dallas and then go to Barcelona via London, but in that case will arrive the 17th, which makes the hotel situation easier, right? I'll need a reservation from then until the end (whenever that turns out to be).
Sent by Enrique Irazoqui
>> I realize that the in-crowd of computer people recognize that short matches are less reliable, but having a 20-game qualifier for an 8-game final is still illogical, IMHO.
In computer chess, short matches are like Russian roulette. Are you familiar with the SSDF list? They play thousands of games to make sure, and some people still argue that it is not enough. :)
I see the long match as a potentially dangerous precedent for BGN.
Not necessarily, provided that we keep differentiating computer chess from human chess.
I would have suggested a higher entry fee to Ray had I known the qualifier would be longer than the final! :)
Good idea in any case. I just don't see anyone but a computer freak following the action for 20 days. You are probably right, but among other things it is a matter of choosing the very best program to play Kramnik. Computer chess needs many games.
But in any case, why just one game per day?
I expect to get 4 games per day. Three programs will participate, playing each other 20 game matches, a total of 60 games in 15 days, hopefully. Games will be played 24 hours a day automatically.
But it is BGN’s call, and once the call is made I just get to work. Travel plans are starting to come together. I may return to SF from Dallas and then go to Barcelona via London, but in that case will arrive the 17th, which makes the hotel situation easier, right? I'll need a reservation from then until the end (whenever that turns out to be).
The Rocamar hotel is more beautiful, has a nice beach and a decent restaurant, but it is a bit out of town, about 15 minutes walk. The other option is the Playa Sol hotel, just in town. For a few days I would recommend the Rocamar, but for a longer period of time the Playa Sol may be more convenient. You could rent a car, but it is not the best way to move around. I find mopeds ideal here. Let me know. Enrique
Sent by Eric Schiller
I don't think a tournament is a rating list. Whatever is needed for accurate rating is irrelevant to qualifying, and eliminating luck has never been part of sport. As long as there is a level playing field, even short matches work fine. Granted, FIDE's 2-game knockout formula is silly, but a qualifier with 6-game matches should be fine. Of course going 24 hours per day makes for more games in a short period of time, but it seems to me that going more than two weeks is just way outside the media attention span. The legitimacy of the qualifier is already under question because only a select few were invited to participate, and many strong engines were not. In any event, in my experience the programmers all find something to complain about anyway. Those complaints hold whether the match is 5 games or 50. Kasparov might well have defeated Kramnik in 24 games. What are the web broadcast arrangements? If the games are going 24 hours, is an arbiter present all the time? Are there any written rules and regulations for this tournament? If so, please send me a copy. As for the hotel, I suppose that depends much on the weather. A 15 minute walk doesn't bother me, if the weather is nice enough to make use of the beach. I've heard there is some good snorkeling around there somewhere. I spend a lot of time in the waters of Hawaii. But if the weather is too cold to swim, then the beach holds less attraction. I'm not much into bicycles, mopeds, scooters. But I don't want to rent a car, too much bother. Where is the tournament played? I have good links to Cadaques web sites and can probably locate everything online, then decide. Eric
Sent by Enrique Irazoqui
>> I don't think a tournament is a rating list. Whatever is needed for accurate rating is irrelevant to qualifying, and eliminating luck has never been part of sport. As long as there is a level playing field, even short matches work fine. Granted, FIDE's 2-game knockout formula is silly, but a qualifier with 6-game matches should be fine.
In human chess, yes. In computer chess I disagree, unless there is a large number of candidates, which is not the case. 6 game matches among 3 programs is not better than FIDE's formula. Ideally, we should have played pre-qualifiers and qualifiers, something like the Interzonals and Candidate tournaments of the sixties. But time was short and the only way out was picking the very best programs and do the best possible job.
Of course going 24 hours per day makes for more games in a short period of time, but it seems to me that going more than two weeks is just way outside the media attention span.
It should last just 2 weeks.
The legitimacy of the qualifier is already under question because only a select few were invited to participate, and many strong engines were not.
Which ones? Considering that this tournament will be played on dual machines and that in the man-machine event the program will run on a multi-processor machine, there are no candidates other than Deep Fritz, Deep Shredder and Deep Junior. All the others are as far from these 3 as Kasparov from a 2500-2600 player.
In any event, in my experience the programmers all find something to complain about anyway.
Yep.
Those complaints hold whether the match is 5 games or 50. Kasparov might well have defeated Kramnik in 24 games.
Yes, but you can't play a world championship in 4 blitz games. It must be believable.
What are the web broadcast arrangements?
No idea.
If the games are going 24 hours, is an arbiter present all the time?
I hope not! You and I are the arbiters, and as far as I know this will be played home, in a small room. Worse: I sold my house 4 months ago and provisionally I live in a small flat. This can create some problems of logistic.
Are there any written rules and regulations for this tournament? If so, please send me a copy.
None whatsoever, aside from:
- identical dual Pentium-933 machines with 768MB RAM
- 3-4-5 men tablebases
- 20 game matches
- 40 moves in 90 minutes
As for the hotel, I suppose that depends much on the weather. A 15 minute walk doesn't bother me, if the weather is nice enough to make use of the beach.
Weather here is usually fine, but the sea is still too cold in April. There are a few tourists that dare to swim in Spring...
{irrelevant questions on snorkeling and hotel omitted}.
Enrique
Sent by Eric Schiller
Ray, I'm confused by a lot of this. 1. I thought you were NOT going to go to dual-processor ready machines. This limits the entries to just a couple of machines, not necessarily the best. It is hardly a qualifier in the true sense, and excludes 99% of the programs. Bad for PR, piss off most developers. I think this has even less legitimacy than hand-picking the challengers. Why not just use the computer rating list? I am especially concerned that the assumption is that only 3 programs support multi-processors. I know of at least one other, a developer who has been nagging me about how to enter. Problem is, I don't want it to play because it would create potential PR problems since I am using that engine (in weaker form) in a commercial product. What efforts were made to reach potential players? 2. No broadband, no website local. How on earth is anyone going to see this? Phone dial-up from Spain to England, 24 hours per day, to feed moves? I don't get it. 3. The event will be held in Enrique's home? What will the media make of that? 4. Overall, I think you will have a hard time selling this as a legit qualifier. The Odyssey tournament looks much more impressive. 5. I understand the rush, but have real reservations about how this is going to make BGN look. There will be accusations of deals with Friedel to insure Fritz plays World Championship. I hope you have given some consideration to the PR aspects, because at the moment, this whole thing looks very bad from many points of view. With established events like Paderborn and Odyssey, plus a rating list, this "qualifier" looks more like a stunt to justify one particular engine. And use of dual-processor reduces the relevance of the event to normal people, who don't have such things. You may well wind up with a Junior vs. Fritz match, both sold by the same company. The controversy won't be good in this case, especially if Gambit Tiger finishes ahead of the winner of our event in the other major tournaments. Eric
Sent by Raymond Keene
Byron-can you look into Eric’s points in the email he sent tonight-we have not issued the invites yet so everything is still possible-also has Eric looked at the strange USA people who constantly send me emails-who are they??? do they have a real machine? are deep Junior and Fritz both distributed by the same company-I want it to appear fair and open not a stitch up- but lets face it though-it doesn’t matter where we play it –Enrique’s house or not-this is a website event not a spectator event-what are the validity of Eric’s points about website coverage-I thought Friedel had all sorts of super website ideas! pls sort this amongst yourselves since I am not a computer expert and I am also about to go to china-all I want is to sign the Bahrainis on April 15 and know that a credible qualifier is going to start next day!! ray
Sent by Eric Schiller
I'll keep in touch with Byron, but yes, Junior and Fritz are distributed by Friedel's company, in almost identical packaging. Here are a few points you should consider. I agree, a website event can be anywhere, but when people get to writing about the qualifier, and they will certainly look strangely at en event which is essentially a match between two programs with one shared commercial sponsor who also seems to be involved in the website presentation to the public and press, held in an out of the way place in someone's house. The last point may be irrelevant, as you say, but it adds to an ugly picture. Now if the event really is open to say, 8 programs, running on a single processor or dual (placing those without support for dual processors at a terrible disadvantage), and includes the top programs as invitees (even if they decline), then I see the problem as minor. I don't know how much money is being put into this, but it does seem overkill to have two arbiters on site the whole time. I'll need a week to work out all the details for Bahrain, no more. Of course I'm willing to go as soon as possible and stay to the end, but wonder if that might not be a waste of money. I'd rather a comfortable journey and pleasant working conditions. Lacking broadband access in Spain means doing everything by phone-modem, which is very limiting. If I were to handle part of the webcast duties, it would be a whole lot easier from here. To be more specific, I suggest offering invitations to the top 12 programs on the official Swedish list, appended below. Note that they are NOT in order (you need to look at the ratings), this is from the ongoing Odyssey tournament website http://www.rebel.nl/odyssey.htm. Many will decline, the expense plus $2500 EF being too much for them. Not our problem. As they decline, you could go lower in the list. Enrique tells me 4 games per day is feasible. Here is a reasonable format: 2 groups of 6 teams, each RR section with 5 opponents x 4 games = 20 games = 5 days. Top two from each section go to finals: 4 players: 3 opponents x 10 games = 30 games = 8 days. Total days = 13 (one day break before finals?), final day has just two games so media deadlines can be met. Total overall 50 games for finalists. Tie break could be overall score prelims+final. I can modify the plan for any non-prime number of entrants, I think. I don't like Swiss, would prefer to see the kind of RR which is envisaged for the cycle. Also, this way the pairings are known, and critical games in the prelims can be hyped. Anyway, that's a preliminary thought. All I need to know right now is what is BGN already committed to. Sounds like there is enough flexibility to allow some modifications to aid the promotion of the event. 24-hour website coverage requires a lot of commentators. Since the games are on the web, you don't need a 24-hour team in Spain. I think 1 commentator per session (4 per day) can handle everything. But I wonder if the resources are there to provide satisfactory web coverage? Is the budget enough to handle it? Is the promotion of BGN website a major goal? If so it needs a lot of attention in the coming month. If the answers to any of these is "no", then serious consideration should be given to handing off the actual game coverage to ICC, where commentators can be provided from anywhere in the world. ICC channels can be used for different languages (Spanish would seem to be a must!). This solves a whole lot of logistical headaches. With under a month to go, and no website facilities up and tested, as far as I know, the public face of the qualifier needs serious attention. From a PR angle, I can see spinning Cadaques as a fountain of creativity, with the world watching to see if the computers can be as creative as Dali. Maybe a link to the Dali Museum would be a nice touch, people could view great art while waiting for moves. Remember that chess is a sport. So I urge you to get from each competitor (or threaten to create ourselves) a sporty logo which can be on screen with the program. Makes it easy to visually identify the competitors, provides relaxation from the text. Haven't forgotten that it is also a business. Please take note that the ad industry has just approved new (larger) standard sizes for banners. You should be soliciting ads from computer companies, computer book and software publishers, and the usual chess crowd. Send me the rates (pretending that I really believe you have a rate sheet ready) and I'll pass them on to Cardoza. Summing up (before the rating list): There is a whole lot to do, and as usual not much time to do it in. I suggest simplification wherever possible, but creating an event which will have credibility. The losers may grumble anyway, but not getting invited is going to create an angry army who will not help our cause when it comes to publicizing the final.
1. SHREDDER 5 2570 ---- D
2. GAMBIT-TIGER 1.0 2635 ---- GUA
3. REBEL-TIGER 13 2598 ---- GUA
4. HIARCS 7.01 2541 ---- GB
5. SHREDDER4 CHESSBITS 2641 ---- D
6. CHESSMASTER 8000 2520 ---- NL
7. VIRTUAL-CHESS2 2530 ---- F
8. FRITZ 6B 2629 ---- NL
9. JUNIOR 6A 2589 ---- IS
10. REBEL-CENTURY3 2582 ---- NL
11. GANDALF 432G 2560 ---- DK
12. ZCHESS 2.2 2400 ---- F
13. ZARKOV 4.5R 2521 ---- USA
14. CHESS SYSTEM TAL 2.03 2408 ---- GB
15. WCHESS 2000 2509 ---- USA
16. LITTLE-GOLIATH 2000V3 2480 ---- D
17. PATZER 311B 2550 ---- D
18. COMET B27 2510 ---- D
19. CRAFTY 18.1 2500 ---- USA
20. NIMZO 8 2555 ---- A
21. GENIUS 6.5 CZUB-STYLE 2561 ---- GB
22. SOCRATES X 2420 ---- USA
23. MCHESS 8 2450 ---- USA
24. YACE 0.23 2500 ---- D
25. EUGEN 7.92 2470 ---- E
26. GROMIT 3.7.4 2480 ---- D
Sent by Raymond Keene
all good points-what I want is solutions not problems so can you discuss all this with Byron and Enrique and come up with answers-we do have a budget and the more progs that enter at 2500 bucks a shot the larger the budget! thanks ray
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